Bio-SIP POD Cast
In this episode of the Pocket Dojo podcast, it’s Paul’s turn to lead the conversation and today he speaks with Justin Murray, Founder of Qube Buildings Limited. Justin is the brains, passion and driving force behind a business that leads the way in regenerative practices innovating and making new building materials poised to disrupt the building industry worldwide. His innovation, the Bio-SIP panel, enables the industry to provide accessible eco-friendly building materials and educate and inspire others to embrace sustainable construction practices. Bio-SIP is a heroic story and celebration of what happens when one person’s vision is brought to life through courage and an undaunted willingness to step up, take on the consensus view and entrenched practices to be the embodied change in the world we need. Justin is passionate about regeneration and making a difference for future generations.
📖 To find out more about Justin and his work at Qube Buildings , follow this link to https://qubebuildings.co.uk/about/
Bio-SIP POD Cast Transcript
0:26
hello and welcome to the pocket Dojo
0:28
podcast the show where we talk about
0:30
making the world a better place by
0:32
making better things I’m Paul Crick and
0:36
I’m as Singh today it’s Paul’s turn to
0:39
lead the conversation so let’s dive
0:41
in so one of the things we’re doing on
0:44
the podcast is we’re looking at the idea
0:46
of regenerative leadership and what
0:48
better way to do that than to tell some
0:51
stories of people who are already
0:53
embracing this and doing so
0:57
successfully so today’s conversation is
1:00
with the managing director of cute
1:02
buildings here in the UK Justin Murray
1:04
who’s doing some fantastic work in the
1:07
building sector trying to disrupt it uh
1:10
using regenerative principles and
1:12
practices so enjoy the conversation it’s
1:15
almost with you know with what we trying
1:17
to develop is is is almost the the lack
1:21
of Technology this there is no
1:22
technology we want we want to get rid of
1:24
all the technology and just have
1:26
something very very passive and in it
1:30
own right and I’m with you there I’m
1:32
with you there it doesn’t need
1:35
electricity it doesn’t need Ai No it
1:38
doesn’t need any of these things and
1:39
it’s actually really simple and it’s
1:42
actually the Simplicity is the
1:43
technology is the tech yeah no it’s
1:47
great okay so uh thanks for being
1:51
gracious enough to redo this I hope the
1:53
article is Lands a bit closer to home
1:55
this time yeah I I did um have a quick
1:58
uh flick through it see that’s fine it’s
2:01
great yeah that’s good bit more on key
2:04
yeah no that’s good op so
2:08
um we’ll we’ll run it as last time you
2:11
know real real short and simple um I
2:13
think the thing I I mentioned last time
2:15
we were trying to do the Michael
2:16
Parkinson thing which is really to get
2:18
to what lies behind the story as much as
2:21
the story itself because I mean it’s
2:23
fantastic product uh and has loads of
2:25
applications and but the the the thing
2:29
thing trying to get across to people
2:31
with regenerative leadership is it’s a
2:32
mindset and therefore you know that’s
2:35
where it starts whatever you
2:37
develop is driven by the mindset and one
2:39
of the reasons I love you and your
2:41
example is it’s it’s very clear that
2:43
that that’s what shouts out loud loud
2:46
and clear as to well this is what we’re
2:47
doing this is why we’re doing it and
2:49
this is where it came from yeah well I
2:52
mean it’s it’s like with any uh any you
2:55
know any Innovation or any um anything
2:59
really always starts as an idea and that
3:01
idea is
3:03
sewn um usually out of necessity or
3:07
frustration or anger or um that there is
3:11
a requirement for something um I think
3:15
with lots of Innovations they come up
3:17
with these great great ideas and
3:19
products and then try and find a problem
3:21
for it yeah um where as opposed to you
3:24
know what what it’s just conceived from
3:27
the fact that we have a massive housing
3:30
crisis not just in the UK but in Europe
3:33
and globally and no one really seems to
3:36
be doing much about it uh maybe a bit
3:41
untrue I’m sure there’s lots of people
3:43
trying to do something about it but not
3:46
from a genuinely sustainable position
3:49
whereby we can make all these houses or
3:53
homes uh genuinely sustainable it’s like
3:56
God I mean how difficult can that be I
3:57
mean you know there’s an abundance of of
4:00
materials out there natural materials
4:02
out there which are which are
4:04
sustainable um and it’s just about
4:06
selecting which ones you know that that
4:08
fit together that harmonize and you know
4:11
make a house for instance sounds really
4:13
simple but it does sound simple but
4:17
through my journey that’s you I Now
4:19
understand why the reason that it is
4:23
really difficult because you have
4:25
standards you have European standards
4:27
you know have British standards you have
4:29
you have all these different um sort of
4:32
forces trying to sort of standardize a
4:36
product to reach very high um sort of
4:40
building
4:41
regulations so it’s so I I really
4:44
started out on the journey because
4:46
because there’s no way our children will
4:48
ever be able to afford a house um unless
4:51
they have help from us so it’s like you
4:55
know we’ve got to do something I’ve got
4:56
to at least try to do something and um
5:00
and that’s where it’s really been
5:02
conceived from because it’s it’s just
5:04
out of frustration and anger and this
5:07
someone’s got to do something about it
5:09
and I can’t I can’t walk through the
5:11
rest of my life thinking yeah we knew
5:13
all these problems were about and yeah I
5:15
didn’t want to inconvenience my life
5:17
because I’m going to have to change
5:19
something and make it you know make a
5:22
like alteration to my to my sort of
5:25
well-being because I have to be more
5:27
sustainable um and and
5:30
I’ll let the problem you let the kids
5:31
sort sort that problem out this is our
5:34
watch you know we we you know when I was
5:38
at school we sort of we were told that
5:41
there were problems with the planet in
5:43
from an environmental perspective and so
5:45
we’ve be growing up with this potential
5:49
massive problem and it just seems to be
5:53
growing this problem seems to be growing
5:54
and growing and growing and it’s lots of
5:57
people are talking about it but you know
5:59
one of the solutions to solve the
6:01
problem and there seems to be such a
6:04
lack of solutions even the government’s
6:06
like well they’re almost in order to
6:09
deliver decarbonization by
6:12
2050 there’s going to be
6:14
technology well we’re drowning in
6:17
technology now we got so much technology
6:19
we don’t know what to do with it and and
6:21
and actually this technology is is not
6:24
going to deliver the
6:26
necessity to decarbonize by 205
6:30
so um so that’s where the journey really
6:33
started through through Co U my other
6:37
print business just fell off a cliff so
6:40
I was like what okay what what can I do
6:43
and so I decided okay well I need to try
6:47
and understand you know how to to make
6:52
houses and homes
6:54
better um so I went and studied um from
6:59
the passive house institution MH and
7:02
during lockdowns I I
7:04
qualified um as a passive house
7:06
consultant so then just gave me you know
7:08
another bit of sort of tools to to be
7:11
able to think okay well look this this
7:12
is the sort of principles behind the
7:15
passive house um sort of um um
7:19
Innovation or or how the passive house
7:22
Institute works and and actually
7:24
physically
7:25
delivering um a very low energy house a
7:29
very energy efficient how so so I sort
7:32
of came up with this idea about modular
7:34
homes and and sort of ped it around to a
7:36
few my friends and sort of said look
7:38
guys you know this this I’ve got this
7:40
idea you know about making sort of
7:42
industrialized hous making which is not
7:46
new you know that’s not a new
7:48
idea and then I ended up getting
7:49
introduced to um my now business partner
7:53
uh jeffa who um is a composite
7:56
specialist so um it’s a complete
7:59
completely different um sort industry
8:02
from sort of construction industry I
8:04
mean the two industries just you know
8:06
very very rarely meet um so it was sort
8:10
of they coming of you know sort of minds
8:12
of you know we have same ethos the same
8:16
sort of principles you know and he
8:18
wanted to also make a change and he had
8:21
been working with a number of natural
8:24
materials um and so between us we’ve
8:26
ended up developing a a a panel
8:30
um you know which is now made from sort
8:32
of flax or hemp and a bio resin and
8:36
recycled materials like 100% postc
8:40
consumer um plastic and the combination
8:44
of those so we’ve we’ve played around
8:45
for a couple of years um trying to get
8:49
all those sort of those really
8:51
sustainable products to work sort of
8:53
harmonize with each other to to create a
8:56
a panel that would actually deliver a
8:59
passive house um that would also deliver
9:03
the structure um structural Integrity
9:06
air
9:07
tightness um and and all the other
9:10
things that you need U to build a house
9:13
in a single
9:14
panel um so um and that’s where really
9:18
that that Journey has come
9:21
from quite amazing um I love the story
9:25
uh that goes with this and uh it just
9:28
shows the power of one or two or a small
9:32
group of committed individuals to to
9:35
making such a significant difference and
9:37
as I was doing uh a little a little
9:41
stalking of uh cute buildings website it
9:43
was interesting to see the number of
9:46
applications that this technology you’re
9:48
building the the bioset panels can be
9:50
applied to it’s quite quite surprising
9:52
how wide ranging it is uh in terms of
9:55
the impact that you can have
9:57
in uh freeing up uh carbon the embodied
10:01
carbon uh buildings the whole the whole
10:05
point the design of that and I suppose
10:09
this is this is part of the Innovation
10:11
is
10:12
actually it’s just a panel okay that’s
10:15
all it is all we’re making is we’re
10:17
pressing panel so we we can do it from
10:19
an industrialized perspective so you
10:21
know part of its design is that we can
10:23
we can press one of these panels in 15
10:26
minutes and that’s done manually so if
10:29
we could do it automatically with
10:31
automation we could probably get it down
10:32
to about six or seven minutes and you
10:35
can industrialize that very very quickly
10:38
where you could be pressing hundreds of
10:40
panels a day and out of those panels you
10:42
can make lamping pods houses meeting
10:46
pods um uh emergency
10:49
shelter um saying dat data centers I
10:54
thought was particularly interesting
10:56
data centers because they need to be
10:57
super energy efficient mhm so I mean you
11:01
know the application for just a single
11:03
Standalone panel is
11:05
enormous and because it’s been used from
11:09
plastic uh or recycled plastic um was
11:14
was really important to us and you know
11:16
it does come with its challenges like
11:17
like anything I mean a lot of people’s
11:19
like oh I don’t want to use plastic um
11:21
but actually using recycled material is
11:24
very very difficult because you know we
11:26
have an abundance of plastic um and you
11:29
know we are now recycling lots of
11:32
plastic which is but we have very little
11:35
use for the plastic that we are actually
11:39
uh recycling so they’re just
11:41
incinerating I mean it’s crazy I I don’t
11:43
know I think it’s something like 70% of
11:46
the recycled plastic that we have is
11:49
just incinerated because there’s no use
11:53
for that so we have to find a way of
11:57
using these materials
11:59
now from the build sector um using
12:04
recycled materials is very very
12:06
difficult because it’s it’s not
12:09
consistent
12:10
enough we it has to be consistent in
12:14
order to deliver a and maintain a a a
12:17
constant quality within the panel
12:20
especially when you’re building things
12:21
like houses which have got to last you
12:22
know 70 80 90 years and there’s also
12:25
things like fire as well also have to be
12:27
taken into consideration so
12:29
you know trying to get reuse these
12:33
materials and get the
12:34
consistency um out of them is is
12:37
incredibly difficult so um you know
12:39
we’ve managed to to do that where we
12:41
have got a a good standard a good
12:43
quality control and we are able to get
12:46
certification for this panel this bioet
12:50
panel um so it can be used within the
12:53
build sector um as well as other other
12:56
sectors because they have to comply with
12:59
the current standards and that has been
13:03
so difficult I can’t tell you how
13:05
difficult that’s been you were telling
13:06
me last time we spoke and it’s probably
13:08
worth sharing um and and probably one of
13:11
the cons most most uh top of Mind
13:15
considerations is obviously compliance
13:17
to fire standards obviously with uh some
13:20
of some of the disasters we’ve
13:22
seen in in history with with buildings
13:25
going up and St and some of some of the
13:26
tragedies that have happened a little
13:29
bit about your journey through that
13:31
because it’s quite a story and I want
13:33
people to hear um how much attention
13:36
you’ve paid to that and almost the the
13:39
the the Blood Sweat and Tears and and
13:41
cash that’s gone into developing the
13:44
panel so that it meets the the fire
13:47
standards uh criteria yeah I mean fire I
13:50
mean with any Innovation you you you
13:53
need to start at the hardest point where
13:55
where you need to get to and then you
13:56
need to work back there’s no point
13:58
starting at the very easiest things and
14:00
then slowly building that Innovation to
14:02
a point where suddenly you know the laws
14:05
of physics uh don’t allow that panel to
14:09
go or or product to go any further and
14:11
yet you still have to still further so
14:13
you always start with the hardest point
14:15
so um I had to do for my um my son’s
14:19
school did like a career talk and I I
14:21
basically said look if you don’t like
14:23
failure definitely don’t get into
14:25
Innovation because because Innovation is
14:28
it’s 90% % failure and um I I suppose
14:32
you know part of um when you have a like
14:36
an almost like a calling to something um
14:39
that’s your driving force because you
14:41
know you know that you can can deliver
14:44
something you have this Vision where
14:47
specifically you know exactly what that
14:50
looks like and you just you just need to
14:52
find ways in order to be able to get to
14:54
that that Vision I mean it’s like Edison
14:57
he knew that if you put Electric it
14:59
through through a material that it would
15:03
it would get hot and illuminate but not
15:06
burn and um and he tried thousands of
15:10
materials just putting but he knew the
15:12
vision he knew that that would work um
15:15
it’s just a question of finding the
15:16
right material and because he knew it
15:18
would work that was his driving force
15:21
and you know that’s the same same for me
15:23
and same for for Jaffer as well we we
15:26
know the vision we can get there it’s is
15:29
just you know the various steps to to
15:32
get there and fire is is is the hardest
15:35
part in in the build sector so you know
15:37
we had to to design the product that has
15:40
to sort of reach the current building
15:44
standards and it’s plastic with an
15:46
internal fiber fiber based thing so you
15:49
would say you would imagine to the
15:51
uninitiated well that sounds like it’s
15:52
quite susceptible to fire
15:56
so yes so how how have you overcome that
15:59
because that that that’s Quite a feat um
16:02
it is a feat I mean um you know we’ve
16:05
it’s a journey like was things and and a
16:07
lot of it has been failure and we we we
16:09
tried various other Technologies to to
16:12
try so basically in a nut in a nutshell
16:15
the the standard that which we need to
16:16
deliver is uh is a standard called en
16:19
n1365 D1 and um that test is basically
16:24
put into a furnace so your your design
16:27
your our panel has to go into a furnace
16:29
that’s 3 m High 3 m wide M it’s like a
16:33
cube with one face open and you have to
16:35
build your wall inside that that furnace
16:39
and then the temperature then simulates
16:41
sort of real world fire so the
16:43
temperature goes from standing room
16:46
temperature at 20° up to about
16:50
825 de in about 7 Minutes wow um and
16:56
plastic melts about 200 50
17:00
Centigrade um and um so steel will melt
17:04
about 1300 Centigrade aluminium will
17:07
melt at about
17:08
650 so um and also natural F you know
17:12
they’re they’re pretty funable so so um
17:16
so yeah trying to find a a methodology
17:19
that would be able to reduce the heat
17:24
from the face the attack side um to the
17:28
point where it gets into the into the
17:31
insulation the um the plastic um we had
17:35
to reduce that temperature down by you
17:37
know 600 Degrees in in a space of um
17:40
about 45 millimet wow um so on top of
17:46
the Furnace uh at
17:49
825 um uh Centigrade it has to last half
17:53
an hour um with a one ton load for and
17:57
it mustn’t lose any structural
18:00
Integrity um and so we managed to get 58
18:04
minutes or 57 minutes um out of that
18:07
test um and in fact unfortunately had to
18:09
stop the test um because of impending
18:11
danger to um to the equipment um but the
18:15
milestone for us would have been 60
18:16
minutes but a pass is is is 30 minutes M
18:20
so um so that as a momentous um when we
18:23
actually did finally do it but we did we
18:25
did do many tests that actually lots of
18:27
it failed and it was like back to the
18:28
drawing board again it’s like okay well
18:30
that didn’t work okay so let’s let’s use
18:33
the data and information about how um
18:36
how that all went and try and keep keep
18:39
finding another methodology to to be
18:41
able to deliver that and and we we did
18:44
it so tell me a little bit about your
18:46
supply chain and how how how things sort
18:49
of come together because obviously
18:50
you’ve got to Source the plastic you’ve
18:52
got to Source your
18:53
fibers and then put it through a series
18:56
of processes to have the raw ingredients
18:58
then to construct this panel tell tell
19:01
us a little bit about that yeah I mean
19:03
the supply chain is is a problem because
19:05
we are I mean the whole sustainable
19:08
materials is still really at its
19:11
infancy um the the consistency of the
19:16
materials is difficult the supply chain
19:18
is difficult I think like you know the
19:19
hemp and flax well there are big
19:22
problems with growing hemp certainly in
19:25
the UK needs licensing um I mean help
19:28
hemp is is an incredible plant um it
19:31
sequesters about 160% of its own weight
19:33
in CO2 uh it grows in about 10 10 weeks
19:39
um so unlike wood uh where it takes 25
19:43
years before you can sort of harvest the
19:45
the wood and use that as as a as a
19:48
building material um you know H can be
19:51
done in 10 weeks in fact you can get two
19:53
two harvests a year out of it and in
19:55
some you know some climates you can get
19:57
almost three um
19:59
crops a year out of this so it’s a very
20:02
very quick um crop but getting that
20:05
consistency out the material um is is
20:08
very very difficult because the
20:10
Machinery there’s only a handful of
20:12
machines in the in the world that can
20:14
sort of process that that hemp get to
20:17
get it into a composition that we can
20:19
use it um but also is consistent enough
20:22
for us to ensure that we hit compliance
20:26
to make sure that the the product that
20:28
we produce is consistent um and
20:32
compliant to um the building
20:35
regulations so in part the reason why
20:39
there’s not lots of sustainable products
20:41
out there because um you have actually
20:44
the the supply chain is is is still not
20:47
mature enough to to deliver um a
20:50
constant I mean it is getting better and
20:53
we we will get there um I suppose what
20:56
needs to happen is that you know you’ll
20:58
need some business Big Blue Chip
21:01
companies say right we’re going to build
21:03
I don’t know 10,000 homes or buildings
21:07
um out of out of you know your your bio
21:10
set um and then we can sort the supply
21:12
chain now I think it’s interesting isn’t
21:14
it because I think you were saying that
21:16
80% of land is suitable suitable for
21:18
growing hemp in the UK and the only the
21:20
only the only barrier seems to be the
21:23
THC
21:24
composition within it which is the the
21:27
um henic the hallogen components now are
21:31
there strange of hemp that that have uh
21:34
lesser amounts of THC and that are
21:36
suitable or yeah I mean hemp is
21:38
different to marijuana I mean all same
21:41
same sort of family or same specimen I’m
21:44
not horticulturist so I’m not in fact
21:47
actually I’m going up to see um a flax
21:49
farm and hemp Farm um at the next week
21:53
so I’ll bit more next week um so they
21:57
are in hemp there’s not a huge amount of
22:01
THC um in it to to have an effect um
22:06
which is which is why you need a license
22:09
but why you need a license to grow h i
22:12
just it just seems it seems odd because
22:15
there’s no way you can smoke it no no
22:17
well that that was my impression but but
22:19
again I I I don’t know enough so so
22:22
what’s what’s the future Direction
22:24
what’s the ambition sort of in the next
22:26
six to 12 months just Justin um well we
22:30
you know we’re still trying to sort I
22:31
mean our our pet which is our recycled
22:34
plastic bottles that supply chain is is
22:37
very good um it’s great Manu
22:40
manufacturing plant in in Belgium um
22:44
that that is that can supply a
22:48
consistently good product um you know
22:51
the hemp um and um flax the flax is is
22:55
is fairly good now but it’s mostly done
22:57
in France so we have a transportation
23:00
problem um and every time you know a
23:04
consignment from from France um it’s
23:07
like 550 each toite so even if we just
23:10
bought one rollers you know so of course
23:12
that increases our
23:15
costs um so our cost based is is still
23:18
huge for our for our product because the
23:20
supply chain is not sorted out really um
23:23
where we can get the goods and materials
23:25
um in by the you know by the truckload
23:28
to reduce the the transportation cost
23:31
because we’re still working pretty much
23:34
um small numbers um but and we’re hoping
23:38
that we will be able to get some sort of
23:40
contract whereby we can supply a
23:43
consistently um number of um panels and
23:47
then we can sort our supply chain and
23:48
hopefully our price point will then
23:50
start coming down which would make the
23:51
buildings much more affordable U and
23:54
almost uh more cost effective than sort
23:57
of traditional builds but at the moment
24:00
we’re a lot more expensive um purely
24:03
because the supply chain and our
24:06
manufacturing facility is still not you
24:08
know automated it’s it’s all done by
24:11
hand still um and once we got the
24:13
machines in to to be able to do that
24:15
properly then you know our our price
24:18
point is going to come right down yeah I
24:20
think I think what you
24:22
illustrate uh beautifully is the fact
24:25
that whilst you can come up with a point
24:28
solution
24:28
it’s a
24:29
systemic it’s a systemic collaboration
24:33
yes it’s required to actually make that
24:35
happen and that’s part of the shift in
24:37
in mindset that we we need from all
24:41
potential players uh to support to
24:44
support the process I mean that will
24:46
that will happen I mean um you know if
24:49
you are if you’re a businessman or
24:51
you’re a pension fund or anesta and you
24:54
think okay well look in in in 26 years
24:58
time that we are supposed to be
25:01
completely
25:02
decarbonized um and the build sector is
25:06
still using I think it’s something like
25:10
39% of uh carbon um or contributes 20 29
25:16
sorry contributes uh to 39% of our
25:20
carbon it it’s just ridiculous you would
25:22
have thought it would have been easy
25:24
that’s the that’s the low panging fruits
25:25
isn’t it well it takes 5% of the build
25:29
sector would be easy and if you compare
25:31
that to let’s say the whole Aviation
25:33
sector that’s just 3% wow so I mean you
25:37
know taking sort of 5 10% out of the
25:40
build sector should be relatively simple
25:43
um so in 26’s time we need to be carbon
25:47
neutral and that’s just an absolute pipe
25:50
draam and I’m I’m fairly confident uh
25:54
bet you pretty good money that in the
25:56
next 15 years you will see massive
25:59
government shifts changing
26:02
legislation um to ensure sustainability
26:05
because they will and there’s already
26:08
lots of uh lawsuits against Varan
26:10
governments because they are not
26:12
complying to the Paris agreement um and
26:17
um now there’s a precedent that um you
26:20
know that the governments if they’re not
26:22
complying or do proper
26:24
greenwashing because they’re not
26:26
complying to the Paris agreement
26:28
um it’s enough to to to be in favor of
26:31
the claimant so um you know I think
26:35
that’s going to happen a lot more I
26:37
think that makes
26:39
uh mouthwatering Prospect for cup 29
26:43
that’s yeah uh people are starting to
26:45
talk about and it’ll be interesting to
26:47
see if stories like yours get told in
26:49
those
26:50
places well you know it’s it’s going to
26:52
happen I mean you don’t need to be a
26:54
betting person to think well in the next
26:56
15 years and the thing is with any
26:57
business business or any product you you
27:00
know you’re not developing the product
27:02
for today’s market you’re developing the
27:05
product for 10 years time or your
27:08
business model in 10 years time because
27:10
by then You’ have sorted all the bumps
27:11
out you’d have got your supply chain
27:14
sorted um and then you know when there’s
27:17
this massive explosion uh of the
27:21
necessity of your product um or your
27:25
services whatever Innovation that might
27:27
be that’s that’s that’s good marketing
27:29
that’s good strategy that’s
27:31
identifying what is going to be the
27:33
problem in the next 10 years um and you
27:37
know one of the the things I love about
27:39
our product is is that actually um
27:42
Building Homes and shelter um that’s
27:45
never going to change in a 100 years we
27:47
are still going to need homes we’re
27:49
still going to shelter this this is uh
27:53
this is something that you know any
27:55
business person should be really
27:57
thinking about what’s not going to
27:58
change yeah interesting Justin where can
28:02
people find out more about you and uh
28:07
the work you’re doing and the BIOS
28:09
panels well uh our web website is
28:13
www.
28:15
bio.
28:18
co.uk is iip sip yes yes yeah bios.
28:24
co.uk uh and you’ll be able to um get
28:27
all the information on off that website
28:29
Justin this is uh for me this is an
28:32
inspiring conversation because this your
28:35
uh walk in your talk you’re an example
28:38
of the Shi in mindset that that that we
28:41
need to get Beyond sustainability which
28:43
is Do no harm to actually going back and
28:47
saying how do we regenerate how do we
28:49
build uh rebuild our biodiversity and
28:53
and do that and the things you talk
28:55
about here are uh great examples of ways
29:00
that can be done and I only wish P to
29:02
your elbow to to to to to support that
29:07
thank you so much for being a guest on
29:09
the pocket dojo and I look forward to
29:12
seeing uh what happens next and where
29:14
you go next I wish you every success
29:17
thank you very much Paul thank you
29:22
[Music]
0:26
hello and welcome to the pocket Dojo
0:28
podcast the show where we talk about
0:30
making the world a better place by
0:32
making better things I’m Paul Crick and
0:36
I’m as Singh today it’s Paul’s turn to
0:39
lead the conversation so let’s dive
0:41
in so one of the things we’re doing on
0:44
the podcast is we’re looking at the idea
0:46
of regenerative leadership and what
0:48
better way to do that than to tell some
0:51
stories of people who are already
0:53
embracing this and doing so
0:57
successfully so today’s conversation is
1:00
with the managing director of cute
1:02
buildings here in the UK Justin Murray
1:04
who’s doing some fantastic work in the
1:07
building sector trying to disrupt it uh
1:10
using regenerative principles and
1:12
practices so enjoy the conversation it’s
1:15
almost with you know with what we trying
1:17
to develop is is is almost the the lack
1:21
of Technology this there is no
1:22
technology we want we want to get rid of
1:24
all the technology and just have
1:26
something very very passive and in it
1:30
own right and I’m with you there I’m
1:32
with you there it doesn’t need
1:35
electricity it doesn’t need Ai No it
1:38
doesn’t need any of these things and
1:39
it’s actually really simple and it’s
1:42
actually the Simplicity is the
1:43
technology is the tech yeah no it’s
1:47
great okay so uh thanks for being
1:51
gracious enough to redo this I hope the
1:53
article is Lands a bit closer to home
1:55
this time yeah I I did um have a quick
1:58
uh flick through it see that’s fine it’s
2:01
great yeah that’s good bit more on key
2:04
yeah no that’s good op so
2:08
um we’ll we’ll run it as last time you
2:11
know real real short and simple um I
2:13
think the thing I I mentioned last time
2:15
we were trying to do the Michael
2:16
Parkinson thing which is really to get
2:18
to what lies behind the story as much as
2:21
the story itself because I mean it’s
2:23
fantastic product uh and has loads of
2:25
applications and but the the the thing
2:29
thing trying to get across to people
2:31
with regenerative leadership is it’s a
2:32
mindset and therefore you know that’s
2:35
where it starts whatever you
2:37
develop is driven by the mindset and one
2:39
of the reasons I love you and your
2:41
example is it’s it’s very clear that
2:43
that that’s what shouts out loud loud
2:46
and clear as to well this is what we’re
2:47
doing this is why we’re doing it and
2:49
this is where it came from yeah well I
2:52
mean it’s it’s like with any uh any you
2:55
know any Innovation or any um anything
2:59
really always starts as an idea and that
3:01
idea is
3:03
sewn um usually out of necessity or
3:07
frustration or anger or um that there is
3:11
a requirement for something um I think
3:15
with lots of Innovations they come up
3:17
with these great great ideas and
3:19
products and then try and find a problem
3:21
for it yeah um where as opposed to you
3:24
know what what it’s just conceived from
3:27
the fact that we have a massive housing
3:30
crisis not just in the UK but in Europe
3:33
and globally and no one really seems to
3:36
be doing much about it uh maybe a bit
3:41
untrue I’m sure there’s lots of people
3:43
trying to do something about it but not
3:46
from a genuinely sustainable position
3:49
whereby we can make all these houses or
3:53
homes uh genuinely sustainable it’s like
3:56
God I mean how difficult can that be I
3:57
mean you know there’s an abundance of of
4:00
materials out there natural materials
4:02
out there which are which are
4:04
sustainable um and it’s just about
4:06
selecting which ones you know that that
4:08
fit together that harmonize and you know
4:11
make a house for instance sounds really
4:13
simple but it does sound simple but
4:17
through my journey that’s you I Now
4:19
understand why the reason that it is
4:23
really difficult because you have
4:25
standards you have European standards
4:27
you know have British standards you have
4:29
you have all these different um sort of
4:32
forces trying to sort of standardize a
4:36
product to reach very high um sort of
4:40
building
4:41
regulations so it’s so I I really
4:44
started out on the journey because
4:46
because there’s no way our children will
4:48
ever be able to afford a house um unless
4:51
they have help from us so it’s like you
4:55
know we’ve got to do something I’ve got
4:56
to at least try to do something and um
5:00
and that’s where it’s really been
5:02
conceived from because it’s it’s just
5:04
out of frustration and anger and this
5:07
someone’s got to do something about it
5:09
and I can’t I can’t walk through the
5:11
rest of my life thinking yeah we knew
5:13
all these problems were about and yeah I
5:15
didn’t want to inconvenience my life
5:17
because I’m going to have to change
5:19
something and make it you know make a
5:22
like alteration to my to my sort of
5:25
well-being because I have to be more
5:27
sustainable um and and
5:30
I’ll let the problem you let the kids
5:31
sort sort that problem out this is our
5:34
watch you know we we you know when I was
5:38
at school we sort of we were told that
5:41
there were problems with the planet in
5:43
from an environmental perspective and so
5:45
we’ve be growing up with this potential
5:49
massive problem and it just seems to be
5:53
growing this problem seems to be growing
5:54
and growing and growing and it’s lots of
5:57
people are talking about it but you know
5:59
one of the solutions to solve the
6:01
problem and there seems to be such a
6:04
lack of solutions even the government’s
6:06
like well they’re almost in order to
6:09
deliver decarbonization by
6:12
2050 there’s going to be
6:14
technology well we’re drowning in
6:17
technology now we got so much technology
6:19
we don’t know what to do with it and and
6:21
and actually this technology is is not
6:24
going to deliver the
6:26
necessity to decarbonize by 205
6:30
so um so that’s where the journey really
6:33
started through through Co U my other
6:37
print business just fell off a cliff so
6:40
I was like what okay what what can I do
6:43
and so I decided okay well I need to try
6:47
and understand you know how to to make
6:52
houses and homes
6:54
better um so I went and studied um from
6:59
the passive house institution MH and
7:02
during lockdowns I I
7:04
qualified um as a passive house
7:06
consultant so then just gave me you know
7:08
another bit of sort of tools to to be
7:11
able to think okay well look this this
7:12
is the sort of principles behind the
7:15
passive house um sort of um um
7:19
Innovation or or how the passive house
7:22
Institute works and and actually
7:24
physically
7:25
delivering um a very low energy house a
7:29
very energy efficient how so so I sort
7:32
of came up with this idea about modular
7:34
homes and and sort of ped it around to a
7:36
few my friends and sort of said look
7:38
guys you know this this I’ve got this
7:40
idea you know about making sort of
7:42
industrialized hous making which is not
7:46
new you know that’s not a new
7:48
idea and then I ended up getting
7:49
introduced to um my now business partner
7:53
uh jeffa who um is a composite
7:56
specialist so um it’s a complete
7:59
completely different um sort industry
8:02
from sort of construction industry I
8:04
mean the two industries just you know
8:06
very very rarely meet um so it was sort
8:10
of they coming of you know sort of minds
8:12
of you know we have same ethos the same
8:16
sort of principles you know and he
8:18
wanted to also make a change and he had
8:21
been working with a number of natural
8:24
materials um and so between us we’ve
8:26
ended up developing a a a panel
8:30
um you know which is now made from sort
8:32
of flax or hemp and a bio resin and
8:36
recycled materials like 100% postc
8:40
consumer um plastic and the combination
8:44
of those so we’ve we’ve played around
8:45
for a couple of years um trying to get
8:49
all those sort of those really
8:51
sustainable products to work sort of
8:53
harmonize with each other to to create a
8:56
a panel that would actually deliver a
8:59
passive house um that would also deliver
9:03
the structure um structural Integrity
9:06
air
9:07
tightness um and and all the other
9:10
things that you need U to build a house
9:13
in a single
9:14
panel um so um and that’s where really
9:18
that that Journey has come
9:21
from quite amazing um I love the story
9:25
uh that goes with this and uh it just
9:28
shows the power of one or two or a small
9:32
group of committed individuals to to
9:35
making such a significant difference and
9:37
as I was doing uh a little a little
9:41
stalking of uh cute buildings website it
9:43
was interesting to see the number of
9:46
applications that this technology you’re
9:48
building the the bioset panels can be
9:50
applied to it’s quite quite surprising
9:52
how wide ranging it is uh in terms of
9:55
the impact that you can have
9:57
in uh freeing up uh carbon the embodied
10:01
carbon uh buildings the whole the whole
10:05
point the design of that and I suppose
10:09
this is this is part of the Innovation
10:11
is
10:12
actually it’s just a panel okay that’s
10:15
all it is all we’re making is we’re
10:17
pressing panel so we we can do it from
10:19
an industrialized perspective so you
10:21
know part of its design is that we can
10:23
we can press one of these panels in 15
10:26
minutes and that’s done manually so if
10:29
we could do it automatically with
10:31
automation we could probably get it down
10:32
to about six or seven minutes and you
10:35
can industrialize that very very quickly
10:38
where you could be pressing hundreds of
10:40
panels a day and out of those panels you
10:42
can make lamping pods houses meeting
10:46
pods um uh emergency
10:49
shelter um saying dat data centers I
10:54
thought was particularly interesting
10:56
data centers because they need to be
10:57
super energy efficient mhm so I mean you
11:01
know the application for just a single
11:03
Standalone panel is
11:05
enormous and because it’s been used from
11:09
plastic uh or recycled plastic um was
11:14
was really important to us and you know
11:16
it does come with its challenges like
11:17
like anything I mean a lot of people’s
11:19
like oh I don’t want to use plastic um
11:21
but actually using recycled material is
11:24
very very difficult because you know we
11:26
have an abundance of plastic um and you
11:29
know we are now recycling lots of
11:32
plastic which is but we have very little
11:35
use for the plastic that we are actually
11:39
uh recycling so they’re just
11:41
incinerating I mean it’s crazy I I don’t
11:43
know I think it’s something like 70% of
11:46
the recycled plastic that we have is
11:49
just incinerated because there’s no use
11:53
for that so we have to find a way of
11:57
using these materials
11:59
now from the build sector um using
12:04
recycled materials is very very
12:06
difficult because it’s it’s not
12:09
consistent
12:10
enough we it has to be consistent in
12:14
order to deliver a and maintain a a a
12:17
constant quality within the panel
12:20
especially when you’re building things
12:21
like houses which have got to last you
12:22
know 70 80 90 years and there’s also
12:25
things like fire as well also have to be
12:27
taken into consideration so
12:29
you know trying to get reuse these
12:33
materials and get the
12:34
consistency um out of them is is
12:37
incredibly difficult so um you know
12:39
we’ve managed to to do that where we
12:41
have got a a good standard a good
12:43
quality control and we are able to get
12:46
certification for this panel this bioet
12:50
panel um so it can be used within the
12:53
build sector um as well as other other
12:56
sectors because they have to comply with
12:59
the current standards and that has been
13:03
so difficult I can’t tell you how
13:05
difficult that’s been you were telling
13:06
me last time we spoke and it’s probably
13:08
worth sharing um and and probably one of
13:11
the cons most most uh top of Mind
13:15
considerations is obviously compliance
13:17
to fire standards obviously with uh some
13:20
of some of the disasters we’ve
13:22
seen in in history with with buildings
13:25
going up and St and some of some of the
13:26
tragedies that have happened a little
13:29
bit about your journey through that
13:31
because it’s quite a story and I want
13:33
people to hear um how much attention
13:36
you’ve paid to that and almost the the
13:39
the the Blood Sweat and Tears and and
13:41
cash that’s gone into developing the
13:44
panel so that it meets the the fire
13:47
standards uh criteria yeah I mean fire I
13:50
mean with any Innovation you you you
13:53
need to start at the hardest point where
13:55
where you need to get to and then you
13:56
need to work back there’s no point
13:58
starting at the very easiest things and
14:00
then slowly building that Innovation to
14:02
a point where suddenly you know the laws
14:05
of physics uh don’t allow that panel to
14:09
go or or product to go any further and
14:11
yet you still have to still further so
14:13
you always start with the hardest point
14:15
so um I had to do for my um my son’s
14:19
school did like a career talk and I I
14:21
basically said look if you don’t like
14:23
failure definitely don’t get into
14:25
Innovation because because Innovation is
14:28
it’s 90% % failure and um I I suppose
14:32
you know part of um when you have a like
14:36
an almost like a calling to something um
14:39
that’s your driving force because you
14:41
know you know that you can can deliver
14:44
something you have this Vision where
14:47
specifically you know exactly what that
14:50
looks like and you just you just need to
14:52
find ways in order to be able to get to
14:54
that that Vision I mean it’s like Edison
14:57
he knew that if you put Electric it
14:59
through through a material that it would
15:03
it would get hot and illuminate but not
15:06
burn and um and he tried thousands of
15:10
materials just putting but he knew the
15:12
vision he knew that that would work um
15:15
it’s just a question of finding the
15:16
right material and because he knew it
15:18
would work that was his driving force
15:21
and you know that’s the same same for me
15:23
and same for for Jaffer as well we we
15:26
know the vision we can get there it’s is
15:29
just you know the various steps to to
15:32
get there and fire is is is the hardest
15:35
part in in the build sector so you know
15:37
we had to to design the product that has
15:40
to sort of reach the current building
15:44
standards and it’s plastic with an
15:46
internal fiber fiber based thing so you
15:49
would say you would imagine to the
15:51
uninitiated well that sounds like it’s
15:52
quite susceptible to fire
15:56
so yes so how how have you overcome that
15:59
because that that that’s Quite a feat um
16:02
it is a feat I mean um you know we’ve
16:05
it’s a journey like was things and and a
16:07
lot of it has been failure and we we we
16:09
tried various other Technologies to to
16:12
try so basically in a nut in a nutshell
16:15
the the standard that which we need to
16:16
deliver is uh is a standard called en
16:19
n1365 D1 and um that test is basically
16:24
put into a furnace so your your design
16:27
your our panel has to go into a furnace
16:29
that’s 3 m High 3 m wide M it’s like a
16:33
cube with one face open and you have to
16:35
build your wall inside that that furnace
16:39
and then the temperature then simulates
16:41
sort of real world fire so the
16:43
temperature goes from standing room
16:46
temperature at 20° up to about
16:50
825 de in about 7 Minutes wow um and
16:56
plastic melts about 200 50
17:00
Centigrade um and um so steel will melt
17:04
about 1300 Centigrade aluminium will
17:07
melt at about
17:08
650 so um and also natural F you know
17:12
they’re they’re pretty funable so so um
17:16
so yeah trying to find a a methodology
17:19
that would be able to reduce the heat
17:24
from the face the attack side um to the
17:28
point where it gets into the into the
17:31
insulation the um the plastic um we had
17:35
to reduce that temperature down by you
17:37
know 600 Degrees in in a space of um
17:40
about 45 millimet wow um so on top of
17:46
the Furnace uh at
17:49
825 um uh Centigrade it has to last half
17:53
an hour um with a one ton load for and
17:57
it mustn’t lose any structural
18:00
Integrity um and so we managed to get 58
18:04
minutes or 57 minutes um out of that
18:07
test um and in fact unfortunately had to
18:09
stop the test um because of impending
18:11
danger to um to the equipment um but the
18:15
milestone for us would have been 60
18:16
minutes but a pass is is is 30 minutes M
18:20
so um so that as a momentous um when we
18:23
actually did finally do it but we did we
18:25
did do many tests that actually lots of
18:27
it failed and it was like back to the
18:28
drawing board again it’s like okay well
18:30
that didn’t work okay so let’s let’s use
18:33
the data and information about how um
18:36
how that all went and try and keep keep
18:39
finding another methodology to to be
18:41
able to deliver that and and we we did
18:44
it so tell me a little bit about your
18:46
supply chain and how how how things sort
18:49
of come together because obviously
18:50
you’ve got to Source the plastic you’ve
18:52
got to Source your
18:53
fibers and then put it through a series
18:56
of processes to have the raw ingredients
18:58
then to construct this panel tell tell
19:01
us a little bit about that yeah I mean
19:03
the supply chain is is a problem because
19:05
we are I mean the whole sustainable
19:08
materials is still really at its
19:11
infancy um the the consistency of the
19:16
materials is difficult the supply chain
19:18
is difficult I think like you know the
19:19
hemp and flax well there are big
19:22
problems with growing hemp certainly in
19:25
the UK needs licensing um I mean help
19:28
hemp is is an incredible plant um it
19:31
sequesters about 160% of its own weight
19:33
in CO2 uh it grows in about 10 10 weeks
19:39
um so unlike wood uh where it takes 25
19:43
years before you can sort of harvest the
19:45
the wood and use that as as a as a
19:48
building material um you know H can be
19:51
done in 10 weeks in fact you can get two
19:53
two harvests a year out of it and in
19:55
some you know some climates you can get
19:57
almost three um
19:59
crops a year out of this so it’s a very
20:02
very quick um crop but getting that
20:05
consistency out the material um is is
20:08
very very difficult because the
20:10
Machinery there’s only a handful of
20:12
machines in the in the world that can
20:14
sort of process that that hemp get to
20:17
get it into a composition that we can
20:19
use it um but also is consistent enough
20:22
for us to ensure that we hit compliance
20:26
to make sure that the the product that
20:28
we produce is consistent um and
20:32
compliant to um the building
20:35
regulations so in part the reason why
20:39
there’s not lots of sustainable products
20:41
out there because um you have actually
20:44
the the supply chain is is is still not
20:47
mature enough to to deliver um a
20:50
constant I mean it is getting better and
20:53
we we will get there um I suppose what
20:56
needs to happen is that you know you’ll
20:58
need some business Big Blue Chip
21:01
companies say right we’re going to build
21:03
I don’t know 10,000 homes or buildings
21:07
um out of out of you know your your bio
21:10
set um and then we can sort the supply
21:12
chain now I think it’s interesting isn’t
21:14
it because I think you were saying that
21:16
80% of land is suitable suitable for
21:18
growing hemp in the UK and the only the
21:20
only the only barrier seems to be the
21:23
THC
21:24
composition within it which is the the
21:27
um henic the hallogen components now are
21:31
there strange of hemp that that have uh
21:34
lesser amounts of THC and that are
21:36
suitable or yeah I mean hemp is
21:38
different to marijuana I mean all same
21:41
same sort of family or same specimen I’m
21:44
not horticulturist so I’m not in fact
21:47
actually I’m going up to see um a flax
21:49
farm and hemp Farm um at the next week
21:53
so I’ll bit more next week um so they
21:57
are in hemp there’s not a huge amount of
22:01
THC um in it to to have an effect um
22:06
which is which is why you need a license
22:09
but why you need a license to grow h i
22:12
just it just seems it seems odd because
22:15
there’s no way you can smoke it no no
22:17
well that that was my impression but but
22:19
again I I I don’t know enough so so
22:22
what’s what’s the future Direction
22:24
what’s the ambition sort of in the next
22:26
six to 12 months just Justin um well we
22:30
you know we’re still trying to sort I
22:31
mean our our pet which is our recycled
22:34
plastic bottles that supply chain is is
22:37
very good um it’s great Manu
22:40
manufacturing plant in in Belgium um
22:44
that that is that can supply a
22:48
consistently good product um you know
22:51
the hemp um and um flax the flax is is
22:55
is fairly good now but it’s mostly done
22:57
in France so we have a transportation
23:00
problem um and every time you know a
23:04
consignment from from France um it’s
23:07
like 550 each toite so even if we just
23:10
bought one rollers you know so of course
23:12
that increases our
23:15
costs um so our cost based is is still
23:18
huge for our for our product because the
23:20
supply chain is not sorted out really um
23:23
where we can get the goods and materials
23:25
um in by the you know by the truckload
23:28
to reduce the the transportation cost
23:31
because we’re still working pretty much
23:34
um small numbers um but and we’re hoping
23:38
that we will be able to get some sort of
23:40
contract whereby we can supply a
23:43
consistently um number of um panels and
23:47
then we can sort our supply chain and
23:48
hopefully our price point will then
23:50
start coming down which would make the
23:51
buildings much more affordable U and
23:54
almost uh more cost effective than sort
23:57
of traditional builds but at the moment
24:00
we’re a lot more expensive um purely
24:03
because the supply chain and our
24:06
manufacturing facility is still not you
24:08
know automated it’s it’s all done by
24:11
hand still um and once we got the
24:13
machines in to to be able to do that
24:15
properly then you know our our price
24:18
point is going to come right down yeah I
24:20
think I think what you
24:22
illustrate uh beautifully is the fact
24:25
that whilst you can come up with a point
24:28
solution
24:28
it’s a
24:29
systemic it’s a systemic collaboration
24:33
yes it’s required to actually make that
24:35
happen and that’s part of the shift in
24:37
in mindset that we we need from all
24:41
potential players uh to support to
24:44
support the process I mean that will
24:46
that will happen I mean um you know if
24:49
you are if you’re a businessman or
24:51
you’re a pension fund or anesta and you
24:54
think okay well look in in in 26 years
24:58
time that we are supposed to be
25:01
completely
25:02
decarbonized um and the build sector is
25:06
still using I think it’s something like
25:10
39% of uh carbon um or contributes 20 29
25:16
sorry contributes uh to 39% of our
25:20
carbon it it’s just ridiculous you would
25:22
have thought it would have been easy
25:24
that’s the that’s the low panging fruits
25:25
isn’t it well it takes 5% of the build
25:29
sector would be easy and if you compare
25:31
that to let’s say the whole Aviation
25:33
sector that’s just 3% wow so I mean you
25:37
know taking sort of 5 10% out of the
25:40
build sector should be relatively simple
25:43
um so in 26’s time we need to be carbon
25:47
neutral and that’s just an absolute pipe
25:50
draam and I’m I’m fairly confident uh
25:54
bet you pretty good money that in the
25:56
next 15 years you will see massive
25:59
government shifts changing
26:02
legislation um to ensure sustainability
26:05
because they will and there’s already
26:08
lots of uh lawsuits against Varan
26:10
governments because they are not
26:12
complying to the Paris agreement um and
26:17
um now there’s a precedent that um you
26:20
know that the governments if they’re not
26:22
complying or do proper
26:24
greenwashing because they’re not
26:26
complying to the Paris agreement
26:28
um it’s enough to to to be in favor of
26:31
the claimant so um you know I think
26:35
that’s going to happen a lot more I
26:37
think that makes
26:39
uh mouthwatering Prospect for cup 29
26:43
that’s yeah uh people are starting to
26:45
talk about and it’ll be interesting to
26:47
see if stories like yours get told in
26:49
those
26:50
places well you know it’s it’s going to
26:52
happen I mean you don’t need to be a
26:54
betting person to think well in the next
26:56
15 years and the thing is with any
26:57
business business or any product you you
27:00
know you’re not developing the product
27:02
for today’s market you’re developing the
27:05
product for 10 years time or your
27:08
business model in 10 years time because
27:10
by then You’ have sorted all the bumps
27:11
out you’d have got your supply chain
27:14
sorted um and then you know when there’s
27:17
this massive explosion uh of the
27:21
necessity of your product um or your
27:25
services whatever Innovation that might
27:27
be that’s that’s that’s good marketing
27:29
that’s good strategy that’s
27:31
identifying what is going to be the
27:33
problem in the next 10 years um and you
27:37
know one of the the things I love about
27:39
our product is is that actually um
27:42
Building Homes and shelter um that’s
27:45
never going to change in a 100 years we
27:47
are still going to need homes we’re
27:49
still going to shelter this this is uh
27:53
this is something that you know any
27:55
business person should be really
27:57
thinking about what’s not going to
27:58
change yeah interesting Justin where can
28:02
people find out more about you and uh
28:07
the work you’re doing and the BIOS
28:09
panels well uh our web website is
28:13
www.
28:15
bio.
28:18
co.uk is iip sip yes yes yeah bios.
28:24
co.uk uh and you’ll be able to um get
28:27
all the information on off that website
28:29
Justin this is uh for me this is an
28:32
inspiring conversation because this your
28:35
uh walk in your talk you’re an example
28:38
of the Shi in mindset that that that we
28:41
need to get Beyond sustainability which
28:43
is Do no harm to actually going back and
28:47
saying how do we regenerate how do we
28:49
build uh rebuild our biodiversity and
28:53
and do that and the things you talk
28:55
about here are uh great examples of ways
29:00
that can be done and I only wish P to
29:02
your elbow to to to to to support that
29:07
thank you so much for being a guest on
29:09
the pocket dojo and I look forward to
29:12
seeing uh what happens next and where
29:14
you go next I wish you every success
29:17
thank you very much Paul thank you
29:22
[Music]
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